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Tasmania-New Zealand -- January 2010

NEW ZEALAND | Saturday, 6 August 2011 | Views [1114]

Mount Aoraki at dawn, South Island, New Zealand

Mount Aoraki at dawn, South Island, New Zealand

PUNAKAIKI-PAPAROA NP

We had originally planned to visit a friend who spends every February in her North Island New Zealand house, but she didn’t go there this year. Nevertheless, we decided to go ahead with our plans to visit NZ. I had recently regained contact with an old travel writer friend, Tamara, a Tasmanian native, who’s always told me what great “bushwalks” (hikes) that island territory (state) has. So, once again, we plundered outfitters’ itineraries for the two locales. We reserved a campervan for NZ, packed a “chillie bin” (ice chest) with camping dishes, and off we went.

SYDNEY

We spent two nights in the Glebe neighborhood, filled with students, quirky shops and eateries, and backpacking tourists. It is strange to stay in a youth hostel where you are at least 20 years older than 90 percent of the customers, but the price is right. We strolled down to the famed Sydney Harbour and saw a white-faced heron near the graceful Anzac Bridge. Sydney strikes me as a very livable big city with its spectacular docks, tropical vegetation, multi-ethnicity, and distinctly British colonial-style homes with balconies and grillework. It is swarming now with Chinese tourists; 10 years ago they would have been wealthy families, but I suspect now they are all middle class.

Our first day, we took a 9-mile (all distances are round trip, or “return,” as they say down there) walk to the downtown area with its museums, aquarium, galleries, statuary, high-class shopping district – and our chief goal, the fabulous botanical garden, or “domain.”

Australia is one of those meccas all serious “twitchers” (the vaguely obscene-sounding British term for birders) must experience. Immediately, we saw a bizarre sight: turkey-size white ibises with 6-inch down-curved bills begging alongside pigeons and gulls! The ibises fill the same niche as our parkland Canada geese: sneaking up on picnickers to beg, terrorizing toddlers clutching sandwiches, foraging in trash cans. We also saw crow-like pied (black-and-white) Australian magpies; purple swamphens, a coot with orange bill and legs; sooty (black) oystercatchers with bright red legs and bills; that most-ubiquitous of tropical birds, mynahs; and a yellow-faced, long-legged lapwing, or plover, I knew from Southern Africa.

But the most extraordinary birds in the domain were the parrots. The trees were filled with screaming rosellas, small green-and-red birds. We couldn’t believe our eyes when we saw flocks of large, white sulphur-(yellow) crested cockatoos raucously wheeling through the canopy! An Aussie later told me that even in his country captive cockatoos are worth $2,000-$3,000, and much more than that in ours. Later in the domain, 10 cockatoos grazed in the grass not 10 feet away, then flew up into a tree right above us. Having seen them in the wild, I can never again look at a parrot sulking in its cage, plucking out its breast feathers as it slowly becomes psychotic in 50 years of solitary confinement …

I noticed hundreds of large hanging nests, like that of an oriole or oropendola. Imagine my shock when I realized they were actually flying fox bats hanging upside down, waiting for dusk to feed on fruit and nectar! Their bodies have the mass of a large grapefruit, and their wingspan is close to 3 feet. They are cinnamon-colored, with winsome, big-eyed, dog-like black faces that give them their name. I’ve seen flying foxes in Cambodia, but never so close in such numbers; indeed, the thousands of bats are killing the park’s trees, and the city is trying to humanely eradicate them. We were so fascinated, we spent at least a half-hour watching them fly around (landing up-side down by their feet), fan themselves with their wings to cool off, and squabble and shriek at each other. On our last night of the trip while taking the airport shuttle back to Grebe, we saw thousands of the foxes flying purposefully – unlike our insect-eating bats’ erratic flight pattern – out to forage. Sydneyites are no doubt blasé about them, but seeing those bats was truly one of my coolest-ever wildlife-viewing experiences.   

BLUE MOUNTAINS NP

Early in his fight attendant career, Chip flew into Sydney many times. He wanted to again hike the limestone cliffs and valleys of Blue Mountains National Park, a two-hour train ride to the east of Sydney. It was a grey, drizzly day, but not prohibitively. The “blue” moniker is from the bluish haze created by the dense eucalyptus forests; we must have seen 25 different eucalyptus species in mainland Australia and Tasmania (hereafter to be referred to by the natives’ “Tassie”). We set off on a 6-mile loop that began with a near-vertical, 1,000-foot descent into a canyon down a harrowing staircase. The canyon floor was choked with some of the densest rain forest I’ve ever seen: myriad fern species, turpentine and eucalyptus trees, strangler fig lianas. We passed under the Three Sisters karst monoliths, three legendary women turned to stone for violating an Aboriginal “kapu” (taboo).

Halfway into the hike, it began thundering then we had a 45-minute torrential downpour which our Gortex, ponchos, and gaiters did little to fend off. Leeches immediately came out to insinuate themselves into our shoe tongues and up our pant legs. Fortunately, we had encountered terrestrial leeches in Thailand, so were en garde. On the train ride home, it actually hailed, even though it was summer and only about 3,000 feet.

Next morning before our flight to Tassie’s capital, Hobart, we had time to run down to the Harbour again to photograph the iconic Opera House in full sun – and ogle the bats and cockatoos once more. The Opera House is truly one of the great wonders of the architectural world with its wing-like partitions and gleaming white tiles. I never thought I’d see it in my lifetime.

TASMANIA

The idea of going to Tassie intrigued me from the start as a place few Americans visit and reputably having some of the best hiking in Australia. Tassie is the huge island off the southeast corner of the mainland, and was where the worst-of-the-worst convicts were originally sent. (I had to laugh when the entry-visa card you fill out to enter Australia asks if you’ve ever been convicted of a felony – hell, everyone in the country was originally a prisoner!) I’d heard that Aussies look down on Tasmanians as hicks, like we do on our Okies or Southerners. It’s also supposed to be 25 years behind the times, a designation I saw proudly touted in a local newspaper. We found Tassie to be almost tourist-free, charmingly rural, and full of wildlife.

Hobart is an old ranching and logging port with a now-trendy waterfront area. We met Tamara and her “mum” at a very posh restaurant co-owned by her younger brother. The prices were way out of our league, but we had a lot of fun chatting with the women about their lives, country, and where we should hike for three days. Tamara had just returned from a long stint of writing a guide to Borneo.

In a rented Honda, we set off for the interior highlands through sheep and cow pastures and yellow hills not unlike California’s Central Valley. We immediately began seeing roadkill that we ascertained were wallabies; the small, nocturnal kangaroos sit on the warm asphalt and get killed. We despaired of ever seeing a live one. Currawongs, the equivalent in size, look, and habits of our ravens, feasted on the corpses of the wallabies and bush-tailed possums, vocalizing an odd bleat like a sheep or human baby.

Tassie is home to many famous wildlife species: diverse marsupials; the world’s only two egg-laying mammals, the duck-billed platypus and the hedgehog-like echidna; and the iconic Tasmanian devil. Chip had a brief look at an echidna crossing the road, and we examined a roadkilled devil: a cute, marsupial, black, knee-high cross between a pig and a dog with white bands on its chest. Honestly, I have no idea where the idea for the whirling, bipedal, human-like Tasmania Devil of cartoon fame originated. Devils are like our badger, willing to take on prey much bigger than themselves. The famous snarling gape is actually a reaction to uncertainty or fear, not necessarily a threat. Devils are in big trouble now, with a wasting fungus disease decimating the population.

This was also the home of the Tasmanian tiger, or wolf, a doglike marsupial with striped back and legs. When Europeans introduced sheep, the opportunistic tigers preyed upon them, so were relentlessly hunted down. Within 200 years, tigers were declared extinct, with rumored sightings up until the 1970s. Their story is one of the most famous and sad of species extirpations.         

We rented a tiny two-bunk room in an old summer camp with a communal kitchen at the base of Mount Roland. We took a steep, 9-mile hike up to the saddle of the peak through an impenetrable jungle of ferns, tropical conifers, and eucalyptus.

By definition, “alpine” vegetation begins where the soil can no longer support trees, due to the cold. At 45-degrees latitude in the Southern Hemisphere, alpine habitat is at about 3,000 feet; in contrast, it begins at 10,000 feet in the Sierra and 12,000 feet in Colorado! On the way back down, we were thrilled to catch a glimpse of screaming blue-green parrots and immense yellow-tailed black cockatoos. On our last morning at the hotel, about 20 cockatoos were in a pine right above our hotel room, ripping apart green cones with their supremely powerful beaks. Talk about a died-and-gone-to-heaven birding experience!

That night, as I was walking to the bathroom along the “carpark,” I saw shadowy forms in the basketball court: about 10 wallabies seeking the pavement’s warmth. They were wary little guys, bounding off effortlessly in single 6-foot leaps. Next night, we staked them out -- odd herbivores with deer-like faces and ears, seemingly useless little dangling forelegs, and huge hindquarters containing their jet-propulsion muscles.

CRADLE MOUNTAIN NP

We headed to Tassie’s most famous NP on what the Irish call “a fine soft day”: light drizzle and fog. We started out on a 9-mile loop to the summit of 4,500-foot Cradle Mountain. It was odd to be in alpine habitat at the same elevation of my Nevada house. Marian’s Lookout was a bowl of pea-soup fog, but as we started to climb the half-mile of talus to the red limestone summit of Cradle, it began to blow off. On the way back, we had super views from the lookout of alpine lakes, distant peaks, and flower-spangled moors.

FREYCINET NP

We drove down the west coast to stay in the tiny beach town of Bicheno and access Freycinet NP and its WineglassBay, named by Outside magazine as one of the world’s most-beautiful beaches. In our hotel’s communal kitchen was a funny map of a gigantic Tassie dwarfing its territory, the mainland, with acerbic comments as to why Tassie is superior.

Bicheno is just enchanting; think 1960 BodegaBay in “The Birds.” We took an 8-mile walk along a beach path past powerful blowholes and rocks with a unique, picturesque red lichen. I examined a dead masked booby, then we saw sooty (“redbills” in the local vernacular) and pied oystercatchers, two gull species, shags (aka cormorants), and breeding colony of black-fronted and crested terns on a close-in island. We walked down white-sand beaches with turquoise water to a spit over which we walked to Diamond Island in low tide.

When we checked in, the hotel owner asked if we were here for the penguin tour. Fairy penguins, the world’s smallest species at calf height, come up the beach rocks at dusk to feed their chicks hidden in burrows. You can pay a fortune to go with a group, or simply go to the areas the hotel folks pointed out to us. As luck would have it, there was a full moon, so visibility in the dark was good.

We waited for a half-hour in the designated spot then decided to try another. As I started over the rocks, I almost stepped on two penguins hidden in the shadows! Then we realized that the continual peeping we were hearing was the chicks’ locater calls. The birds’ eyes are photo sensitive, so Chip was frustrated that he couldn’t take flash photos. But from 15 feet away with my binoculars, I could clearly see many penguins creeping up the rocks and feeding the chicks by ramming regurgitated fish down their throats. I have seen penguins on islands off of Peru and in a breeding colony south of Cape Town, but Chip never, so needless to say, we were thrilled.

Next morning was foggy again for our 6-mile loop around WineglassBay. Still, the bay was gorgeous, rivaling any famous Hawaiian or Caribbean white-sand beach. I examined a dead albatross, which I had never seen, and we watched two currawongs gleaning insects from kelp and heard the evocative “tock-tock” of a bellbird in a marsh.

In another bay, we spotted six wallabies in the bushes – at last, a close, daytime encounter with live specimens! Chip took a million photos as they allowed us to get within 10 feet; we later found out they actually beg from beachgoers. NZ has introduced five introduced wallaby species, but Tassie’s were the only ones we were to see. (FYI, the difference between a kangaroo and a wallaby is simply weight.)

It finally cleared on our drive back up to Hobart to catch our Christchurch plane, and we saw many more gorgeous beaches in brilliant sun. I had Chip stop so I could examine a cat-size roadkilled, marsupial bush-tailed possum with pink “hands” and full, prehensile tail.

NEW ZEALAND ECOLOGY

I had bought a guide to all of NZ’s wildlife and plants, which proved extremely helpful in our identifying efforts. NZ’s ecological history is fascinating. Before the advent of the Polynesians who became the Maoris about 1,000 years ago, NZ was a nation of birds. Its sole mammals – two bat species – were “birds,” and its most famous bird was a “mammal,” the moa, which was the size and shape of a juvenile giraffe, minus the front legs. The Maoris exploited the moas and their eggs so efficiently that the 9-foot-high, largest birds in history were long extinct by the Europeans’ arrival in the 17th century.

In a predator-free environment, many of the birds evolved as flightless, and thus became fair game for introduced mammals, starting with stowaway rats in Maori canoes. NZ is a biologist’s nightmare of why introduced species are so damaging. Nearly 50 percent of the islands’ 41 endemic bird species have become extinct due to predation of flightless adults, nests and fledglings by rats, possums, stoats (a weasel-like animal), ferrets, goats, foxes, dogs, and feral cats. The Department of Conservation (DOC) has declared war on predators in an attempt to save species, establishing barrier fences and pest-free outlying islands to raise endangered, captive-bred birds for re-release. We saw many stoat traps baited with eggs, and gulped at a very graphic DOC poster of a possum and rat chewing on endangered fledglings pulled from a nest. Even NZ’s most famous bird, the flightless kiwi, is severely threatened: 95 percent of fledglings in the wild do not survive.

NELSON LAKES NP

In Christchurch, we picked up our very basic campervan with comfy foam mattresses and bedding. We had brought my single-burner Coleman stove, assuming we could find the proper fuel canisters. Alas, they were unavailable, so we had to shell out $30 for a stove that used very expensive butane cans. At trip’s end, we donated the stove to the DOC for use by its predator-control field biologists.

We spent our first night in a private “holiday park” (campervan campground) en route to Nelson Lakes NP in the north-central area. This was our intro to NZ’s very peculiar campground situation. They collect your fees, but since the spaces are undesignated, people just cram in wherever, as close as they can in the more-popular DOC campgrounds. As people who avoid campgrounds virtually entirely, this was an irritant to which we never became accustomed. The worst example was two Israeli kids who erected their tent 3 feet from our table!

Next day, we camped at Lake Rotoito, a large, deep, textbook glacial lake. We hiked a steep, 6.5-mile loop up a ridge above the lake in alpine meadows then dense rain forest. We encountered a flock of fantails, which follow hikers to catch the insects attracted to them. The tiny birds bounced off branches all around us, flashing their black-and-white tail “fans.” Harrier hawks soared above the ridge, and we saw yellow-green silver-eyes and a cute little NZ robin that’s totally unlike the North American species.  

We drove down the island’s west shore to hike the Hawaii-like rain forests of Paparoa NP near the town of Punakaiki. In an 8.5-mile loop, we waded across one river then went up over a ridge to walk back alongside another. The number of fern species was mind-boggling -- NZ has 65 species – including ones with 6-foot fronds and 20-foot tree ferns. We spotted our first flightless bird: two brown, chicken-size wekas begging at picnic tables. We also saw purple pukeko swamphens and white-headed paradise shelducks.

Punakaiki is famed for its very powerful blowholes surging among the “Pancake Rocks.” Layers of limestone and a softer material were deposited along the shore. The softer material has partially eroded away, leaving odd columns resembling stacked flapjacks.

 OKARITO

Our guidebook sang the praises of Okarito, a beach town down a gravel road so tiny it has no stores. Folks rent kayaks to bird its jungle-lined lagoon. We camped in a funky, town-run campground a block from the beach and walked to the start of a trail up a ridge with views of pretty beaches and the lagoon. Okarito is the sole habitat of a severely endangered brown kiwi. Kiwis are nocturnal, flightless, and chicken-size with stiff feathers and a 6-inch beak with the nostrils at the end. The closest we came to seeing one was a joke shot Chip took of me training my binocs on a “kiwi-crossing sign.”

Next morning, we set off for four hours of kayaking at the same time as a nice young NZ couple, the male of which was a bird professional. We had long, close looks at many white egrets; white-faced herons; barred godwits; crested terns; pied stilts with impossibly long, hot-pink legs; both oystercatcher species; kereru wood pigeons; and huge white spoonbills. I’ve seen roseate spoonbills in Florida and Central America, but it was a first for Chip. The lagoon was the birding highlight of the trip.

 THE GLACIERS

This was to be our best “full-body workout day” when we ran down the coast that afternoon to take the steep 7-mile hike up to the base of Franz Joseph Glacier. Now NZ looked like Alaska, with surging rivers opaque with “rock powder” silt in broad, desolate beds of moraine gravel. On the jungle trail, we crossed swing bridges and climbed over roots and slippery rocks. Finally the glacier vista opened up: a huge snowfield with endless, sheer cliffs of bluish ice hemmed in by sheer peaks. It reminded me of walking out on Mendenhall Glacier near Anchorage in 1976; nowhere in the Lower 48 can you get so close to a glacier as this. Alas, the experience was marred by the incessant drone of sightseeing helicopters jockeying for position. Yeah, yeah, I know the access-for-all argument, but why is it always at the expense of hikers’ enjoyment? In a DOC campground that night, we heard NZ’s only endemic owl, named for what it clearly hoots: “more pork!”

Next morning, we walked almost to the terminus of nearby Fox Glacier. With my binocs, I could see 50-foot cliffs of that otherworldly blue ice high on its face. At another overlook, trees draped with red-flowering rata vines framed a dazzling look at the glacier completely surrounding the base of 11,000-foot Mount Tasman.

 MOUNT ASPIRING NP

Heading south, we drove the Haast Highway alongside the glacial HaastRiver with views of snow-covered peaks. We camped in a DOC facility with beautiful views of 8,000-foot snowy MountBrewster. The first afternoon, we took a 3-mile hike across a swing bridge to the Blue Pools, perfectly clear, aquamarine, glacier-fed river pools, so ice-cold (as we found out when we tried to swim) as to support no life. Next day, we took a hike along a river then over a ridge in the MakaroraValley. Another flock of fantails latched on to us, so tame they actually alighted on my outstretched arms!

 MILFORD SOUND AREA

Now we headed to the most famous and widely photographed part of NZ: the Southern Alps and Fiordland NP. We camped alongside the vast, white-capping Lake Te Anau then drove the twisting 50 miles to the Sound in intermittent rain. This area receives as much 7 meters – yes, 21 FEET! – of rain, so we did not expect to see the Sound in clear weather. Indeed, the swirling mists and vertical falls pounding down into the Sound we saw from its forebay are its essence.

On our way back to the Divide (the lowest pass in the Alps) hiking area, we stopped at a tunnel to look for keas. The DOC constantly warns you about the large rascally parrots’ propensity to chew up things – windshield sealing, motorcycle seats, tents -- with their powerful beaks. Three of them descended on a tour bus, begging and preening their bronze-green and red plumage while the cameras snapped.

It was clearing as we hit the Routeburn Track, the only one of NZ’s nine multi-day Great Walks we would trod, for a 7-mile hike. We ascended among dense, moss-covered trees above mists swirling over the HollyfordRiver Valley. We passed the backpackers’ Howden Hut, and were glad we had decided not to join the 23-year-old Germans and 20 Singapore high schoolers there for the night. We lunched at 525-foot Earland Falls, one of countless falls and freshets cascading down the canyon walls all around us.

Next day, we returned to the Divide for a steep, 6-mile hike up to Lake Marian, reputedly one of the park’s prettiest. We paused at the “gantry” (viewing platform) over a stupendous cascade. I gasped when we got to the perfect tarn of Marian: pure blue under swift-moving clouds and a textbook glacial hanging valley bordered by steep, snow-capped peaks.

Back in Te Anau, I wanted to see a lakeside DOC wildlife center that houses rare, endemic birds. We got another close look at keas, and at two other parrots we did not see in the wild: the large, green-and-red kaka and the small red-crowned parakeet. But the bird I most wanted to see was the takahe, a turkey-size, purple swamphen with red legs and beak. Another flightless victim of the insatiable introduced predators, takahes were believed to be extinct until a tiny population was stumbled upon in 1948. Captive- and predator-free island-breeding programs have brought the population up to a precarious 300, only 30 percent of which are currently in the wild. The center’s sole takahe was very old, sad, and slow. Watching her, I got the same lump in my throat as when I saw Hawaii’s state bird, the nene goose, of which there were also only 300 left, at Haleakala in the mid-1980s.  

 ROY’S PEAK

Queenstown, beautifully situated on huge LakeWakatipu, has become the ultimate active-tourism destination, with a smorgasbord of rec offerings. (“Q’town” was the original bungee-jumping site, but, no, we didn’t indulge.) We spent the night there en route to Wanaka, on the shores of yet-another large, gorgeous glacial lake. We did a 9-mile hike up 3,000 feet of switchbacks in sheep pastures to the ridge below Roy’s Peak. The views of Lake Wanaka’s islands and peninsulas and glacier-bound 9,100-foot Mount Aspiring were stupendous.

We spent that night at a working sheep and cattle ranch, or ‘station.” The guidebook said owner “Tony shares his kitchen and lounge as well as his theories on farming and politics,” and, boy, did he! A recent widower, Tony rents out rooms in his house and camping space in his lovely garden to supplement the ranching business and assuage his loneliness. After 10 days of DOC camping, we were grateful a hot shower and the use of his cooktop and doily-covered dining table, musing at the chintz-covered armchairs around the big-screen TV. As we sat down for dinner, Tony came out and talked our ears off all about how destructive the previous prime minister’s policies were toward agriculture, how small NZ farmers are being swallowed up by multinational conglomerates, and his son’s trip to Italy to sell the station’s merino wool for suits. He also described the social ills of NZ and the problems of the Maoris, which are very like those of our urban blacks. He was a bright, astute guy, and it was one of those rare travelers’ opportunities to question a native about his country.  

 AORAKI/MOUNT COOK NP
We headed up long LakePukaki to NZ’s most popular national park, Aoraki/Mount Cook. It is dominated by Aoraki (“Cloud Piercer” in Maori), aka Mount Cook, Australasia’s highest peak at 12,350 feet. Twenty-two of NZ’s 27 mountains over 10,000 feet are in the park. Aoraki and the nearby ridge dominated by Mount Sefton form the backdrop to the camping area, with that ethereal glacial blue ice right above you.

Perpetually swathed in rapidly moving mist, Aoraki is one of the most picturesque mountains I’ve ever seen, with an abrupt double summit surrounded by ice fields. It is also one of the most dangerous to climb, and was not summited until 1884. For the first time, I got a gut feeling about how dangerous and unpredictable is ice climbing; we heard several avalanches in two days. The visitors center had three books filled with memorials to hundreds of climbers who have been killed on Aoraki or Sefton.

As soon as we changed money in Christchurch, I recognized on the $5 bill that most famous of beekeepers, who would be knighted for his Himalayan-climbing feats: Sir Edmund Hillary. A big museum in the park dedicated to NZ’s national hero opened just weeks before his death. Hillary learned to ice climb on Aoraki, even bringing Sherpa Tenzing Norgay there to train before they conquered Everest.

Our first afternoon, we did a 10-mile hike up the valley formed by Hooker Glacier, at the base of Aoraki. We crossed a swing bridge over the opaque river emanating from the glacier, and marveled at blue icebergs floating in the pool at the terminus of its dirt-covered ice field.

Our last day of hiking on the trip, up to the Sealy Tarns lakes and Mueller Hut, was our most difficult, not so much because of its 3-mile, 3,000-foot gain up talus as for the intense wind. As we neared the ridge, I was almost literally swept off my feet. We spent a shell-shocked half-hour lunch in the hut recovering and steeling ourselves to go back out into the gale. But the close-up views of Seton’s dead-blue ice cliffs were worth it. Chip left our snug campervan the next dawn to capture images of the Cloud Piercer in rosy mists – a fitting end to a trip suffused with natural beauty.             

 ________________________________________________

 MILES HIKED: 144 in 17 non-traveling days. NZ’s trail system is marvelous, with trailhead map boards, clear signage, informative hiking brochures, and good route maintenance. At the end of the trip, I asked Chip, “What do non-hiking tourists do in New Zealand? What a shame to experience the country simply from a tour bus.”

 LANGUAGE: First, Aussies really do say “G’day” (pronounced “good-eye”) and “mate” (“mite”) all the time. I enjoyed using the former to greet oncoming hikers throughout the trip. I feared I would have trouble with the extreme NZ accent, but quickly got used to it. I was amused when a New Zealander complained about how he hated the Brit accent, which sounds so refined to us! NZ vocabulary we loved: jandals=flip flops (Japan+sandals), judder bars=speed bumps, sweet as=similar to our “fantastic!”, tramping=hiking, track=trail, no worries=no problem, Enzed=New Zealand, nappies=diapers -- and our all-time favorite expression, “Rattle your dags.” Dags are the turds clinging to a sheep’s ass, and to rattle them is to hurry up. Kiwi has three uses: kiwi=the bird, Kiwi=a New Zealander, kiwifruit= the fruit we know.     

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